The trouble with JtO’s Call to Action for women

Kept up on some of the threads the last few days and witnessed johntheother having another meltdown on there. He wrote an article about “The Gun in the Room” in 2012 and believes it’s an absolute necessity that people not only read but also agree with the piece. In it he calls out women for leaving the “gun loaded” and “pointed at men” by not taking up activism to “unload” it through changing laws he sees as unfairly impacting men. Okay. Plenty in the legal system is unfair — that’s not a question. But what are individuals really able to do? We’ve all seen how standing around with signs does very little to affect policy decisions. Even if all the citizens in this country tried pooling together funds to lobby our Congresspeople we still wouldn’t be able to compete with the funding they receive from corporate donors. And it’s that big, overarching System that’s been calling most of the shots for a long while.

Legal forms of protest are proving ineffective time and time again. Illegal forms have great potential to prove just as ineffective, especially as people angle to promote their own concerns over those of others. And most folks seem to not want to see this system destroyed, and thereby will deem MRAs and members of any other groups to be enemy combatants if they break the law in their attempts to fight back. Homeland Security’s been chomping at the bit for an excuse to kick into action — this is no secret. And what will it result in? Likely even more invasive surveillance under the guise of just trying to keep us all safe, and most folks will applaud this as necessary. Because most folks choose safety over full-fledged freedom, and that’s true of both men and women in the U.S. today. That’s just dealing with the reality of the situation.

So John wants women to do what exactly? Contact our Representatives? Play the tit-for-tat political game to no end? Help break the system? Yell at feminists? How does he expect individual women to undo so much of what’s oppressing men (or all of us)? Am I willing to stand in protest against the Selective Service requirement? Yes. Do we have rallies like that around here? Not to the best of my knowledge. Should I start one? I’d think if it’s such a pressing concern to men they’d start that ball rolling themselves.

As for so much else he takes issue with in the legal system — look, the legal system is a jumbled nightmare, in the U.S. at least. We’re better off stripping laws off the books than adding hardly any more.

But these sorts of topics require a great deal of discussion among people and no one group has all the answers and insight. Yet people are polarizing and causing communication to further break down, and this is nearly everybody’s fault and problem in some way. It seems to me the answer isn’t to just spring into political action and go battle it out with other groups in a hostile fashion. We appear to have no choice but to communicate and cooperate so far as we’re able, lest we create hell on earth (much worse than it is already). Our society can’t stand much more fighting and feuding; it’s turning people off to where they’re growing numb and feel frustratingly powerless. We see evidence of this all around. More and more people are becoming apolitical because they can’t deal with all that bullshit negativity anymore.

Which brings me to my final point. Does John’s article not also call MGTOWs to task? Because many of them have chosen to opt out of political activism and state they aren’t interested in actively furthering MRM objectives. Wouldn’t they too then be tolerating a “loaded gun” pointing in their direction? I can’t see where women have a greater obligation to do something than men in this scenario. Most womenfolk were born into this right along with the menfolk. What about us females who consider ourselves as opting out and going our own ways? Does that not count?

I just thought it was a weird oversight that John would call out women in this and yet say nothing to the male readership who also publicly declare themselves as disinterested in engaging in political battles. Perhaps his reply would point to MGTOWs opting not to date or marry, but even there many exceptions abound, hence the whole idea behind the label: men deciding for themselves and setting their own priorities and standards regardless of societal expectations. They are no more inclined toward taking action on behalf of AVfM’s goals than most women likely are.



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4 Responses to The trouble with JtO’s Call to Action for women

  1. Lany says:

    Hi Bienya,

    I’m Lany. I’ve been looking for you for a couple of days since GOM wrote the following in the Alluring Honeypot Thread on AVfM:

    ” It also seems some of our detractors are tracking you on this board and making blog posts.”

    It took me a couple of days to figure out the correct Google search to find you. Anyhow, I really expected to find a feminist site where I was being torn to shreds for my sympathies with MRM issues. It was nice to find someone who wasn’t beating me up.

    I’ve taken a quick look at your writing and some of your videos and I’m very glad that GOM made that random comment and got me curious. I’m going to subscribe to both your blog and your YouTube Channel.

    It unfortunately seems that AVfM really just can’t handle any dissenting views at all. Rather than ban me they seem to have devoiced me. All I can imagine is that they are trying to make it look like I’m being hit with a bunch of questions that I have no answer to. I’m pretty disappointed in the level of dishonesty this implies. Perhaps it is a mistake but I can’t even send a PM to GOM as all privileges on the forum are gone.

    I do agree with you completely that JTO is making a bad mistake in seeing women as having more responsibility then men to agitate for changes to laws relating to false rape accusation. The responsibility is equal. But, as you said, the problem affects men detrimentally, not women, so they are the ones who are most likely to notice the problem. You can’t expect people to agitate to fix problems they don’t even see. False accusation happen in all sorts of crimes. Most women are not aware that there is a particular problem with rape accusations. The implication of the article is that if women are not doing something to help it’s because they really like having the option to false accuse. It’s a thoughtless argument that implies that every injustice that you’re not agitating against, even if you are unaware that it exists, is an injustice that you actually support.

    Anyhow, I’m looking forward to checking out more of your work. We share and interest in gender issues.



    • Byenia says:

      Hi Lany,

      Amazed that you found your way here. I no longer log in on AVfM so I’m unable to click on members’ profiles, but the general public can at least read what’s posted in the forum and on the main site. I check back around on there from time to time to see what crazy shit they’re up to, and it’s always something.

      Yes, false accusations are lobbed against people for any crime imaginable thanks to how litigious our societies have become. It’s a damn shame, but that’s what we’re confronting in this day and age. That JtO sees this as womankind’s fault and ultimate responsibility to remedy is little more than scapegoating since it will take concerted effort from everybody if ever we’re to drastically overhaul and improve the legal/criminal justice system(s) (I read that you’re a Canadian, so pardon me if I tend to speak from the American perspective primarily, this being the only country I can claim to know much about). And that requires working together, which is pretty much the opposite of AVfM’s stance so far as I can tell. They promote the strategy of FTSU (“fuck the shit up”) and carry on endlessly in blaming feminists for everything under the sun, and as you’ve discovered they tend to assume ALL women are feminists at the core and treat them accordingly until “proven” otherwise.

      GOM stops by on here occasionally because a while back he had invited me onto AVfM, thinking I’d bring a worthwhile perspective. Though I didn’t come on there with as friendly and open of a disposition as you and “Sally Mainstream” did, and I didn’t stick around long after reading a number of threads and articles that seriously troubled me (if you do a search for “byenia” it’ll bring up what little interaction I had on there, plus the typical shit-talking after I bowed out). And I’m sure you’ve probably read Diana’s (realityisabitch) “Message To Female Newbies” where she lets women understand we’re to basically leave the fact that we’re women at the door before engaging in conversations there:

      Rude shit, if you ask me. And counter-productive if the goal is to attract more interest to concerns impacting men. Btw, that realityisabitch woman happens to be johntheother’s girlfriend, in case you didn’t know. And then of course there’s Eriu who pipes up aggressively against nearly any woman who wanders into that forum. The message seems clear that they’re only tolerant of women who behave like bulldogs on their behalves. Those who come in with questions and concerns about their tactics and/or messages are considered a problem.

      I’ve posted up on here a few posts about JtO and Paul Elam that might interest you, but a search of YT and AVfM will bring up much more about those characters. While there are some seemingly decent folks on the forum, those two guys are bad news in my book.

      In case you’re interested, Paul Elam has articles up on AVfM encouraging jury nullification in man-on-woman rape trials (links in this post):

      JtO posted up a video where he blatantly stated he no longer cares about real rape victims, even when attacked by strangers, due to him being fed up with feminist propaganda (plus followed up later by creating the video linked here after receiving a great deal of flak):

      They both have said all kinds of stuff that blows my mind and that I personally can’t get behind, but you should assess it for yourself.

      Thanks for stopping by and good luck in making sense out of what that movement’s really about.

  2. Lany says:

    “I check back around on there from time to time to see what crazy shit they’re up to, and it’s always something.”

    Did you see this: .
    JTO writes: “allowing that I have the time to do so, I will challenge new females who comes into this forum to demonstrate -- not simply claim -- that they actually recognize male human beings as human, and that they are not merely tourists, peering in curiosity at the spectacle of teh-menz thinking they might someday be real humans -- but that female newcomers recognize they’re in a activist forum -- which is part of a vital human rights movement.”

    It looks like women entering AVfM now have to prove themselves to JTO before they get to stay. I wonder if they all have to accept that they are pointing a loaded gun at every man too.

    You wrote: “And that requires working together, which is pretty much the opposite of AVfM’s stance so far as I can tell.”

    Yes, and I think they are making an enormous mistake here. They disdain women and “manginas” but they define pretty much any man who doesn’t blame women for all men’s ills as a mangina. They are alienating almost everyone from their movement. My husband told me he had checked out the site a while back and that he would never have anything to do with such a group. He encouraged me not to try and engage there but I ignored him and went ahead. It pretty much went as he expected.

    “And I’m sure you’ve probably read Diana’s (realityisabitch) “Message To Female Newbies””

    I did read that on my first day there. It really set the tone. I guess I shouldn’t have been surprised at Eriu’s attack after reading that. It seems the women who stick around there are as bad as the worst men there. I actually feel very bad for them. I can only imagine what the psychology of such a person is. On the positive side though, I did see some men who were intelligent and thoughtful although I actually didn’t get to engage with most of them.

    “They both have said all kinds of stuff that blows my mind and that I personally can’t get behind, but you should assess it for yourself.”

    Thanks for the links, I watched them all. It really is very shocking stuff. People who care about men’s rights should be pushing these two guys, and others like them, away with both hands.

    I’ve spent the last few days looking through your material. I’ve really enjoyed it. Keep up the great work.

    • Byenia says:

      Yeah, I did catch that thread earlier, and it looks like your friend Francis Roy had his fill for the week too.

      JohntheOther is a jerk, no way around it. He and Paul Elam are convinced women are the source of all problems, so they don’t tolerate others who see it differently. Kinda like how folks keep repeating lately GWW’s line about “owning your shit” and yet these jokers refuse to do so. I’ve read where men have wandered into their forum expressing more ‘moderate’ attitudes and questioning their preoccupation with feminists/womankind, and those guys wound up banned too.

      My guy as well as my guyfriends, plus my stepdad even, all said that group wasn’t worth dealing with right from the start. And, like you, I went ahead and tread on in, initially on YT and later on AVfM. And they showed hostility pretty much from word one. It’s an extremely narrow-minded crowd comparable to the worst feminists I ever encountered (and the Atheism+ forum too, as your friend mentioned). They don’t like hearing that comparison being made, but it’s true, hence why people keep repeating it.

      There are a handful of decent folks on there, so far as I’ve read, though I continue to wonder what the attraction is for them. Usernames of those I prefer to read that come to mind are Vance (though he’s pretty new), Maxx (he’s more reasonable than most, at least sometimes…depending on the topic in question), Prince_Tybalt, Francis Roy, comhcinc (on some topics), Shadow, MrScruffles, Katsuni, Imdefender, Aimee McGee (the only open female who seems to show compassion in the whole place), MrAndryist, mauvebutterfly, Terence (he either left or was banned), Victor.Zen (on some topics he can be very reasonable) and PureStorm. There are others but I’d have to go in search for their handles.

      For a little more insight into JtO he posted that he is “pro death” in this thread:

      Somewhat heartening that a couple guys are questioning him on that stance and its implications.

      You said: ” People who care about men’s rights should be pushing these two guys, and others like them, away with both hands.”

      That’s how I see it too, and it troubles me that these guys have pulled as much of a following as they have. Lots of the men attracted to this branch of the movement are young and recently broken-hearted and disillusioned, so they’re more open to a narrative of this sort at least at this time. The same can be said for followers of Barbarossaaaa and Stardusk, though I’ve also watched videos where men have stated they felt these avenues to be useful for a spell to help put things in perspective, but then they eventually realized they needed to move on past them. And I hope that winds up being the case more often than not. It’s basically a narrative that allows these guys to escape the weight of their own responsibility and choices by deflecting onto women. If they went out clubbing and sleeping with women unprotected and impregnated one who they later turned out to not like at all, they can conveniently blame her for being responsible for getting pregnant (probably even deceptively set it up that way) so as to play the system and them. Couldn’t possibly be their fault at all that they chose to have sex indiscriminately. And the lesson the others hammer into them tends to be to leave women alone entirely from there on. Because, as we all know, one bad experience is indicative of nothing but bad experiences going forward. It usually takes young and inexperienced persons to accept such logic.

      I’ll be glad when respectable men stake a claim to leadership in the men’s rights arena and present better alternatives for activist endeavors.

      Glad you’ve liked what I put on this blog. It’s not much more than a journal really, just a sandbox for me to play out-loud in. ha Feel free to send along any links or interesting info you come across, as I’m spending an awfully lot of time online these days. 🙂 Too frickin’ cold to be anywhere but the apartment right about now.

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