Grumpy Old Man posted a comment early this morning, copied and pasted here in full:
I guess what I was expecting based on the reason I brought to the forums in the first place…to discuss men’s issues with men, that you’d listen more and refute less. Not saying all we do is correct, but men are talking and if all you do is refute then maybe they are not the problem. The MHRM has been dealing with this for a long time and I think you know that. I’m listening to them and Feminism and I see the poison for what it is. It is not the group of men expressing anger. You are a woman and you took it personally, maybe you should step out of your XXXXX pass and personal situation and listen to what they are saying, just listen. These guys are saying hey and in many respects it may not apply to you personally, this is why I felt you might be a good person to invite, you come from a different place than the Feminist we are concerned with. They are thinking outside the box the same as you. This is why I say I have miss judged your character when I invited you.
My reply to this will probably be lengthy so I’m opening this new post up to address him specifically.
GOM, you thought I would listen more and refute less…hmmm…reading back on the first post on AVfM that I responded in titled “Byenia Addressing Bar Bar’s admirers” that you posted up including a video I created, my initial comment was in response to Astrokid on page 3, he being someone I’ve debated already on YT comment threads. He takes issue with some of my positions and likes to oversimplify my views everywhere he goes. I refute him because he aims to flatten my position down to nothing more than distaste for generalizations, which he’s repeated again and again in comment sections. While he gives me grief for taking issue with blanket stereotyping of all who happen to be female, I’m quite sure he wouldn’t be nearly as open to stereotyping all who happen to be male in a similar fashion. But my main point is my brain simply cannot operate that way and separate all males and females off into generic categories for discussion. That he aims repeatedly to try to pigeon-hole me into doing so is a bit irritating, and after reading this time and time again, am I to simply accept what amounts to a strawmanning of my views everywhere that guy goes? It’s not as if I told him off in response, I simply stated:
I’m not claiming to be on “Team Woman,” but I am a woman after all. Hard to have conversations with others when the focus is on categorizing “my kind.” That’s the way it feels for me anyway.
And no, I don’t like terms like “white knight” and “mangina,” much as I don’t like terms like “slut” or “friend zone.” But whatever, my own preferences are my own, as yours are yours.
What’s the harm in stating that? I see none.
On page 4 I replied to Reyeko’s question on how I define “friend zone,” and I told him it’s not a term I find very useful.
People, including Astrokid, then went into making this about “cult-like behavior” in reference to MGTOWs, claiming that’s what I was getting at, then Astrokid tried conflating my message as somehow being in line with FreeThoughtBlogs and Affirmative Action- and VAWA-supporters, and I called him on that since it’s an unfair depiction intended to tar me over matters that have nothing to do with me. I’ve stated plainly in at least one video that I’ve never been a supporter of Affirmative Action, and I’ve stated in my “Why I’m No Longer a Feminist” video comment thread that I’m not even familiar with VAWA legislation, BUT Astrokid would not know this since he openly admits to not caring to watch any more of my videos, yet he then criticizes me and claims to only be going off of what he has gleaned from watching the videos he did care to watch (excluding the one you posted up).
I don’t know about everybody else but I find it a bit frustrating to lay out some of my views and have them overlooked and then contorted to fit in with some preconceived idea that some folks wish to project onto others. What’s the point of even making a video then? What’s the point of even writing out some of my views on this blog or anywhere else if they’ll just be ignored so that someone can insert their own assumptions in place of what I’ve stated? It’s rude, but more so it’s misleading. I refuted him only because of that, and I didn’t tell the guy completely off or make a big fuss, though I did state what he was claiming was bs:
That is so much bs, Astrokid. You don’t like me because we got into a comment thread argument once and I couldn’t see it your way. If you want to dismiss me as “non-feminist in name only,” then fine, but that’s not accurate. My issues with feminism are my own, and pardon me for caring about myself as a woman nevertheless.
And I’ve never supported VAWA, Affirmative Action, and never been associated with FreeThoughtBlogs in any way, so you’re conflating something here that creates a distorted impression.
To Bolo I replied:
I never called MGTOW a cult. That’s a fabrication on the part of Astrokid. I am, however, very skeptical of ALL movements and how they’re inclined to transform over time, and I do speak about groups generally in my videos, with much of my focus paid to the feminist movement and what it’s become.
Since they kept putting this “cult” talk in my mouth, as if it actually came from me.
Astrokid went on to claim I had made “several” videos “attacking” the “manosphere” (though at that time I had not but a couple, one of which hardly could be taken as an “attack” and was rather offered as a comparison between feminism and what I’d learned so far in the “manosphere” in terms of objectives argued in favor of and styles both movements appear to embrace — wasn’t a good video, but wasn’t an “attack” either). That Astrokid dude wanted to paint me as some sort of enemy right off the bat to yet another group of people, basically encouraging them not to watch my videos since they’re more or less about “cult-like behaviour.. violence against women LOL.”
You know what PC is? Politically Correct speech. It’s the unforgiving tyrant which would make free speech punishable by death. All PC needs, is for a few people like you to go, “hmmm, well, hmmm, it’s not very nice to hmmm… hurt anyone’s feelings and, hmmm… make sweeping accusations, hmmm… isn’t there a better way to communicate?
I’m going to paraphrase a few great revolutionary men… FUCK YOU!!!
I say “usual” because I’ve since read plenty from the guy and see him jumping to conclusions and being a jerk pretty regularly. That’s just his way apparently.
I’m not a proponent for political correctness, but who really cares, huh? If they say I am, it must be true. And I shouldn’t refute them, I should just sit and listen, right? All I said back to him on that was this:
Oh Lord, as I’ve stated over and over on these forums since joining yesterday, SAY WHATEVER YOU WANT. Because I disagree with you does not make it censorship. Am I wrong to express my own point of view here?
To which he replied:
Hinting that we should change the way we argue IS censorship. You don’t like the use of generalizations, well tough shit, they’re real, they’re insidious, and just because they make YOU look bad, doesn’t mean we shouldn’t use them; that’s the whole POINT of using them, it’s to Fuck Your Shit Up.
I don’t care if gold coins fall from your ass, and your cunt smells of lilac and lavender, you do not represent the general female population.
I would never claim to represent the general female population, so that’s totally confusing right there. I replied to him:
Expressing my own viewpoint is censorship? Now you’ve gone too far. People will disagree and will state as much. But you can continue saying whatever you wish whether I like it or not.
I’m not so sure your generalizations make me look bad so much as they leave me out of discussions, which can’t help but bother me when I feel I have a perspective to share.
Never would claim to represent the female population.
And that’s all I said in that particular comment thread. That’s it. Wasn’t trying to have some major argument, was just aiming to clarify my own views, though that didn’t go over well. And people continued on commenting for several pages. There was plenty I could have taken issue with before Astrokid jumped in, such as MGTOW4Ever’s comment:
I don’t like this cow. I was almost beaten to death not once but twice by a female or because of a female, I was sexually abused by a female as well. I have a health distrust for Females. Being a Dick is a natural response for self protection and self preservation. If she doesn’t fucking get that fuck her.
But no. I didn’t say a word to that guy.
Could have taken issue with Reyeko’s claims:
All statistics which don’t match her life experience are wrong.
All generalizations which don’t perfectly describe her life experiences are wrong.
She uses all the same shaming rhetoric and feminist non-arguments like violence against men not mattering because it’s other men doing it and shit like that.
The sad thing is that she is not stupid, she is willfully ignorant about things which she doesn’t agree with.
But I let that slide too and said nothing.
Could’ve refuted Deucalion’s conflating my disgruntlement with Bar Bar’s admirers (specifically) with the AVfM, as if I was addressing them all, but I didn’t. Let that slide (even as the outpouring of ridicule from some of these AVfM guys did wind up mirroring Bar Bar’s minions’).
Bit my tongue when Eriu started in with her usual buttholish drivel. Read her reply to another video of mine you posted up and already figured out what she was about, so no need saying anything to that chiquita. Though now I will say something in reply to one of her comments on there where she stated the following:
What the hell did she think was going to happen on a website called A Voice FOR MEN???? Dinner party conversation? Poetry? She was a guest and she behaved like a visiting member of royalty, demanding special treatment, requiring her hosts to pander to HER wishes, HER needs, HER “standards” ppppft.
I didn’t entirely know what to expect when I went on there after you invited me, GOM. But I thought it was possible that things could be kept a bit more civil, and that proved to be a naive expectation on my part. Hence why I left them to do and say what they wish without my direct interference.
But, while that thread was winding out, I commented on one other thread as well, titled “what to do with arsehole’s ?“, where I jumped in on page 2 to reply to ComradePrescott. My comment didn’t go over well since I was (not too clearly) insinuating that both men and women work and use their assets to get by. That some of these guys see it as women simply standing idly by, letting others carry them while they contribute absolutely nothing, is one of those generalizations I think gets taken too far. It’s just not a realistic view of most folks out here in society, whether male or female. Should I have remained silent on that point? Perhaps so. But by then I was getting a bit irritated with the attitudes expressed and wanted to offer a counter-argument.
In reply to Reyeko’s talk about us “princesses” having everything done for us, I replied:
Right. And lord knows that’s what most of us women are used to. [sarcasm]
You’re operating with a very caricatured distortion of womankind.
What I was comparing is the use of one’s assets to get by in this world, and all come with risks attached. I thought we were talking about work here, not merely mooching, and most women indeed do have to work (to state the obvious). I’m wondering where all these women sitting around eating bon-bons and never having to work or lift a finger to do for themselves are hiding out here in society, because I’m not meeting them.
And for the record, it’s very convenient to toss around statistics on men’s workplace risks and injuries, though I personally find it troubling that so many men not working in those sort of capacities lay claim to those men’s reality as if it universally applies to all of mankind. No, the stock broker or accountant isn’t facing the harsh and dangerous working conditions of the mechanic or commercial fisherman, yet they like to parade around statistics as if they’re all one and the same simply because they belong to the same sex. That strikes me as a very strange as well as disingenuous, not to mention disrespectfully using men who are in those positions to bolster some “movement’s” objectives.
I mentioned men’s workplace risks because I see this same sort of things bandied about in other groups who parade around statistics pertaining to the “less fortunate” so as to bolster their own causes that tend to cater more to higher-class folks than those offered up to pull at people’s heartstrings. It’s a real concern, and it demonstrates my interest in working-class men in particular and the disdain I have for middle-class men to stand on their backs so as to draw attention to their political cause. It’s not a popular viewpoint, okay — I never figured it would be accepted as such, seeing as how it highlights hypocrisy in these sorts of movements. But it is genuinely a concern I have for males I personally know and am related to. I continued on in reply to Reyeko:
Scroll back. ComradePrescott stated: “I think that it’s probably that guys don’t usually ever experience getting carried through life based on their gender.” And that’s who and what I was originally responding to.
My point is that most of us have to work and are not simply “carried through life.” So stereotyping the situation that way is what’s dishonest. And what’s also dishonest (in reply to your last paragraph) are men who lean on and use examples of other men working in hard labor to back their own ideologies. Plenty of men working in dangerous positions themselves claim to not respect other guys trying to piggy-back off of their personal efforts. In other words, not all men out here are facing dangerous work conditions, and in fact fewer are, and that deserves to be acknowledged when we’re talking about how hard one sex has it comparable to another.
I didn’t have “housewifery” in mind, but rather prostitution since plenty of people look down on that and consider it “easy money” without seriously considering the risks inherently involved in such a line of work. You may call it comparing apples to oranges, but the point I was trying to make is that 1.) most people have to work (including most women), and 2.) most folks have to work with the assets at their disposal. And commonly, the poorer a person is, the more likely they are to fall back on utilizing their physicality (i.e., base assets) to earn a living and get by.
Hopefully that was made more clear.
And I replied to Iron John below that:
I’m not attacking you. But I am noting how many men like to claim other men’s efforts and problems as if they are their own.
That back and forth carried on into page 4 where I asked to see Shadizar’s source material for his claims, which he never provided. Last I read, at least 70% of women are in the workforce, and if he wants to claim that’s mostly part-time work then I’d need to see what data he’s operating with. But that wasn’t forthcoming, as to be expected.
So basically I’m presented with a situation here where people can and do generalize to great extremes without feeling it necessary to provide documentation to back their assertions, yet if I don’t accept these claims hook, line and sinker, then it is I who has the problem and no one else. See, that’s not how this shit works. Nor does it work where I or anyone else must stand idly by and be told what’s what without delving into these topics ourselves. We’re just supposed to stand on the sidelines and read and listen and see how it is they do things and what it is they purport to believe in (gee, where have I heard that sort of thing before?).
I didn’t really get testy until the end of page 4 of that thread, and then yeah, I’d had quite enough of the attitude problems from Shadizar, Eriu, and Reyeko in particular. And this continued on until page 12 where I bowed out rather than let things boil over any further, seeing as how my own position was viewed as completely ridiculous to those folks. (But still, it didn’t turn into some major brawl, so I didn’t think the discussion went terribly, even though I inevitably chose to walk away.) Okay. Well, as you know, I’m coming at this from more of a working-class perspective, so I can’t help but see most women out here working just as men must. And yet because there are members of the middle-class who sit around watching soaps all day (allegedly), I am supposed to let that shape my worldview at the exclusion of all experiential knowledge and personal observation I’ve picked up out here in the world?
That’s not how this is going to work, at least not for me, not anymore.
You didn’t want me to refute them… hmmm… lol. You wanted me only to listen to them, even when they criticize me based on one video I created. Even when they frame the gender issues from a solidly middle-class women vs. working-class men perspective that leaves out a whole lot. Okay. Well, your wish was granted. I retreated to my own space where I can speak freely without obstructing them in any fashion, and I continue to read what’s been posted there from time to time to better acquaint myself with their views without me feeling the need to weigh in in their space. Best of both worlds, so far as I can tell.
Now, you stated:
You are a woman and you took it personally, maybe you should step out of your XXXXX pass and personal situation and listen to what they are saying, just listen.
And listen… GOM, can you perhaps imagine that I have actually spent many years listening to men? It might be very difficult for you to understand seeing as how you and I don’t know each other beyond these little backs-and-forths online and video content, but it’s clear that you project on to me a lot of assumptions, such as that I am merely coming at this as some closed-minded female who lives in my own little world and who can’t concern herself with what men are going through. And that is patently false. Since you want to go there, let’s go there. Let me tell you a bit of TMI about me that I’ve been waiting to open up about in this venue.
From roughly age 21-28 I worked as an escort, a prostitute if you prefer, and during those 7 years I spent a lot of time listening to men, caring for men, concerning myself with what all they’re going through, particularly middle-class men. I bit my tongue plenty, and I sat through all kinds of smart remarks not intending perhaps to be painful, just men speaking freely where they feel they ought to be able to. And I took it all rather graciously and had many reviews attesting to it. I participated in sex industry-related forums, both nationally and locally, and even was left to manage our local board when the previous manager had to move. I read and heard plenty for years and years, and it was my job to be pleasant regardless and to act “classy” enough to not take things too personally, even when guys said harsh things about women in general and “hookers” in particular, even when guys expressed extremely classist attitudes against their “lessers” of both sexes, and even when some guys took it upon themselves to tell me how to do my job, how to live my life, what I ought to be majoring in in school, what kind of man I should be dating in my personal life, where I should be living, etc. Hell, I even moved on account of their preferences. I resisted quite a lot based on my own integrity and principles, but I gave in on lots of matters, particularly when it came to tolerating shit men say.
Now, let me be clear that I am not 100% opposed to the industry, nor do I take issue with everyone within it. I am not an activist against that way of being, though my views have certainly changed over time in relation to that sort of lifestyle. But there are cretins among men, that I knew already but definitely got to learn even more about through that venture. And I’ve come out recognizing that I am not on the side of ALL men or ALL women, because there are pathetic examples of both sexes, so no, I cannot and will not simply stand by and listen without saying a word in my own defense or in the defense of others just because a man’s group or a woman’s group see themselves as entitled to behave any which way they choose. I have no reason to remain silent, but that doesn’t mean I shut my ears and eyes simply because I disagree. I’ve been more than fair with lots of people who frankly deserve to be told to shove their egos and unwarranted assumptions up their asses.
So, if I am trapped in my “XXXXX pass and personal situation” at this time, then so be it. I perhaps need to be, because this life isn’t just about pleasing everybody else. My own views may seem entirely inconsequential to some of the folks at AVfM, and that’s fine — no skin off my back. But I feel I have earned my right to turn inward and do my soul-searching and fact-checking and life-exploring without being shunned for not toeing another damn line set up by people with interests that tend to run counter to my own. If that is selfish, then so be it. We work with what we have, from where we stand. I don’t doubt you did “misjudge” my “character,” considering you haven’t had that much to really go on.
I cannot completely separate my sex from these discussions, and I’m not interested in joining an activism movement, so there’s really no need for me to try to jump back in with those folks at AVfM or any similar sites. But it’s been interesting observing and interacting to the extent that I have.
[Updated to fix typos: 7:26pm 12/22/13]