Rude assholes make for shitty public relations, and other observations on the “manosphere”

Came across this video tonight:

[Which appears to have since been removed. Pity, that.]

That was the WoolyBumbleBee critiquing common MGTOW attitudes expressed on YT and on forums she’s affiliated with. Huh. Sounds like she and I reached pretty similar conclusions. Haven’t watched but just a few videos by her in past months and am not up on all the drama involving her and AVfM (now have listened to her and Paul Elam’s last phone conversation posted on dailymotion and that’s enough for me). Not too shocking that we made some similar points in places seeing as how it’s a glaringly noticeable problem within the whole men’s rights/MGTOW online environment.

Ya know, last year when I first stumbled across GirlWritesWhat’s channel and began watching her videos and became a bit riled up in reflecting back on how bewildering my own dealings with feminism turned out (as discussed elsewhere on this blog), I told myself I’d say what I had to say in a few videos maybe but wouldn’t get re-caught up in “gender war”-related bickering. But then I kept watching people’s videos and checked out the occasional forum. Then I started getting a bit irritated with super-biased “minions” in comment threads and their pseudoscience-peddling, woman-denouncing “leaders” preaching from their YT pulpits.

But I resisted diving too far into that bullshit. As soon as I stumbled across that load of characters last year they went to jumping to conclusions and insulting — right off the bat. What was my original crime? I created my “Why I’m No Longer a Feminist” video. So they got to grilling me and leaving comments saying things like I deserve to live out my life alone and shame on me for having ever been so naive (heaven forbid a college student might not know it all). Just stupid horse pucky. People say, “oh, don’t worry about people in comment sections,” but if they’re crawling all over every MGTOW or MRM-related video and site—plus my feminism-related video that didn’t mention anything related to the MRM even in the tags—how can onlookers ask questions and engage in worthwhile discussions? We really can’t. But we can show up to be harangued by people thinking they belong to some “in-group” and therefore are at liberty to stereotype and heckle anyone who comes across as even remotely critical of what they wish to believe.

That’s weird and it’s stupid. And the reason some keep telling these guys that they’re behaving like stereotypical feminists is because it’s true.

Let’s break MRAs down (and MGTOWs where applicable):

1.) Behaves as if the narrative he/she wishes to subscribe to is the only real truth and dissenters or critics are automatically the ones operating with flawed logic and irrationality.

2.) Argues from emotions that what he/she assumes trump all else, and is found too often to be largely uncritical of what it is they’re devoutly supporting.

3.) Firmly believe their narrative is supported by statistical data and scientific evidence, nevermind that statistics are commonly warped and misused, nevermind that the “science” involved is selectively cherry-picked and all other conflicting information is ignored.

4.)  Coddles members of its own “in-group” while demonizing, wholesale blaming, trivializing and ridiculing, or ignoring those outside of it or who won’t toe whatever line is being drawn.

5.) Commonly speaks in “victim speak.” There’s a great deal of focus on oppression and institutionalized sexism, and terms like “abuse,” “rape,” “harassment,” “violence,” “coercion,” and “crime” are broadly applied when discussing interpersonal interaction between the sexes.

6.) Blame the other sex for having started this whole mess.

7.) Claim to be seeking “equality” under the law, and somehow seem to think the legal system is capable of ironing out all of our differences and disputes.

8.) Treat members of the opposite sex with undue hostility and condescension.

9.) Tell people not already affiliated with their “in-group” that they should read and listen more to the arguments being made by members of their community, especially before attempting to converse with them in “their” online spaces. If you open your mouth and state something many of them deem to be ignorant or wrong-minded, they parade you as an example of “the enemy” and again direct you back to reading and listening more to what they have to say. Because their concerns trump whatever you might have to say, automatically. And if your own experiential knowledge conflicts with the claims they’re making, you’re just not paying close enough attention to their “big picture.”

10.) Use examples of poorer persons facing harsh economic and/or social conditions here or abroad to bolster their own movement’s causes and arguments, even if their proposed “solutions” would in virtually no way actually impact those people’s lives for the better. And a good many belonging to the “disadvantaged” class in question aren’t actively involved in the “movement” online or offline and therefore aren’t having much of a say.

That’s what I’ve got right off the top of my head this evening. But tell me those examples don’t appear applicable to either gender-bent movement. And based on the nastiness I’ve witnessed in those calling themselves MRAs and/or MGTOWs and/or PUAs over the last year, I’d actually have to say my past run-ins with feminists online weren’t nearly as rude. They just tended to ignore me, which wasn’t much fun, but they weren’t calling me out as a “cow” or a “cunt” or a “fat bitch” or a “whore” or a “nobody” just because I expressed disagreement with them. That juvenile behavior is a major turn-off that ultimately is going to keep men’s rights-related issues and sites from being taken seriously.

For “leaders” or “big dogs” within these “movements” to defend these ways of being as just the result of “men in pain” who deserve the right to air their grievances is bullshit when they’re lashing out at strangers who haven’t done a thing to them. They’re projecting onto others what they wish to see, and if enough people behave this hostilely it will likely create a self-fulfilling prophecy. And that seems precisely what some are pushing for.

Ya know, when I started looking into all of this initially I did aim to reserve judgment and to not accept people dismissing the MRM as a cult, but now I’m just not sure what to think it is. My heart goes out to those who honestly are just trying to help men to receive equal consideration when it comes to custody of their children and fairer treatment by the courts, because the vocal hooligan fringe (or is it the core?) of their “movement” is serving as their loudest PR, and the impression given is pretty atrocious. And I wonder how might decent people within that sort of setup distance themselves from the clowns?

But it’s not just about “idiot minions” on comment threads; it’s about deluded “leaders” too. Look at this blog post, read the comments snipped and click on the links to verify the original publication and for context. Doesn’t matter who the source is that compiled those statements — it’s about the content. Now tell me, why should someone with a mind like that be leading anyone anywhere? This is a legitimate example of whom and what others partaking in that “movement” respect? I’m honestly asking and would appreciate feedback if anyone would care to wade in civilly.

There are limits. Nobody wishes to sign up for being given a hard time unnecessarily. Because men have been wronged by women, or women have been wronged by men, does not give us a free pass to treat perfect strangers like dirt. People are going to defend themselves, and why wouldn’t they? What kind of masochist would hang out on a “manosphere” or feminist or atheism+ forum (or wherever) where people are greeted by messages informing them essentially that ‘their kind’ won’t be tolerated to speak freely, even honest attempts in good faith being irrelevant since the whole place revolves around their own ideological narrative? Period.

No.

How exclusive and unproductive. But whatever. People will do what they’re driven to do.

 ~

“Nothing is easier than self-deceit. For what each man wishes, that he also believes to be true.” — Demosthenes (350 B.C.E.)

“No man was ever so much deceived by another as by himself.” — Lord Greville

“Freedom is the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.” — George Orwell

“He that is not aware of his ignorance will only be misled by his knowledge.” — Richard Whately

“Oh God, how did I get into this room with all these weird people?” — Stewart Brand

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8 Responses to Rude assholes make for shitty public relations, and other observations on the “manosphere”

  1. gunlord500 says:

    It’s been a good couple weeks for me. I thought I was the only person annoyed by “MGTOWs,” but I’ve managed to find a few other people who feel the same way--you seem to be one of ’em. By most standards I’m a MGTOW, in that I don’t want to get married or care all that much about female approval. Yet the other “MGTOWs” I’ve met were rarely shy about insulting me because I didn’t hate on women constantly. One of the many reasons I’ve come to believe I don’t much need the acronym even if it superficially describes me.

    • Byenia says:

      Good call. Thanks for sharing your perspective. And yeah, there’s probably a good many of us out here who are critical of what’s popularly promoted as MGTOW philosophy.

  2. Jay says:

    Still not sure what a MGTOW is, though I think I once manufactured them for Raytheon.

    Here is what Tod Kelly says, and I agree almost 100%

    As it turns out, most the MRM’s opponents actually agree that there are a lot of cracks in the system where men (especially low-income men) are at risk at having their civil rights and safety violated. However, no one aside from the MRM seems willing to actually run with any of these balls. Which means that if you are, for example, a male at risk of sexual assault looking for a political white knight, the MRM isn’t just your best available option — they’re your only available option.

    Unfortunately for that at-risk male, the MRM might just have the single worst political instincts of any civil rights groups I have ever encountered. In fact, as you will see if you read the Beast article, the movement’s insistence on pushing aside its more moderate leaders in favor of its most comically vitriolic makes it untenable for a mainstream politician or policy maker to align themselves with MRM causes. (Imagine if you will the effectiveness of the 1970s feminist movement if it had publically rallied around its Andrea Dworkins and marginalized its Gloria Steinems. Or if the Civil RIghts Movement had bet all of its chips on Stokley Carmichael and left Martin Luther King, Jr. as an unknown without a flock.)

    Many of the MRM’s critics (and believe me, there are a hell of a lot of them) worry that having the MRM in the public spotlight might be damaging to women. I highly doubt this, if only because I question the movement’s ability to persuade anyone outside of its own sphere. Which isn’t to say I don’t worry that the movement might be damaging; I do. I worry that the MRM might be doing the most damage to the very people it sets out to help. Public policy changes need either mainstream public support or heavy political clout. As it stands, the MRM has neither, and, worse, does not appear have any interest in taking even the smallest steps to change that fact.

    Here’s what I’ve said in the past. It takes a deft, swift hand to write antagonistic parody that begs to be misconstrued. Paul Elam and his writers may be many things, but deft and swift they are not is not. They have to be idiots for writing screed after screed they claim is parody when they know the opponent they face loves to cherry pick and misrepresent quotes. They have to be idiots and whiny assed titty babies (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=WATB) to actually complain and act like they are the victims when feminists and the mainstream press confuse their parody with actual sentiments.

    (I don’t know if you commonly video blog while driving, but it’s obnoxious, and you should stop it.)

  3. Jay says:

    URL of the Tod Kelly quote above: http://ordinary-gentlemen.com/blog/2013/10/20/take-two-red-pills-call-me-in-the-morning-the-sudden-and-surprising-rise-of-the-mens-rights-movement

    Please, I don’t wish to see any more videos of you blogging while driving.

    • Byenia says:

      Then you may choose to no longer watch my videos. I vlog when time and energy permits, that sometimes being while traveling.

  4. mortalez says:

    I will say this, emotional scaring is worse than any other, in fact there have been polls done where the majority of people polled stated pain caused by love, or more the ending of love to be worse than any physical pain previously suffered including having babies, car wrecked, being shot etc etc…..

    You must understand that men much like women are part of a system that cares for neither but for political reasons seems to be currently in favor of one over the other.

    Now think about this, that system is unseen even by those within it so its easy for those who are outside of your core group to become the face of are the malice you face on a daily basis.

    It is very easy to feel the whole system is set up against men because it is, and men are fighting back many of them out of anger at being lied to all their life.
    We are told if we work hard, and stay out of trouble we will be rewarded with a loving devoted wife, 2.3 children and weekends at the lodge drinking beers with friends or barbequing in the back yard.
    That was supposed to be our reward for a life of working yourself to an early grave.

    What we were not told was that even if we managed to achieve all that it can be lost simply because that loving wife got bored and that the state will help her take all you worked for.
    We were not told that every space we happen to enjoy will be invaded and changed to the point it is almost unrecognizable. we were not told our work environments would become mine fields of political correctness where we are forced to walk on eggshells. yep it seems the 21st century is hostile to everything we are. And the result is justified anger.

    Now did you deserve such hostility? I dont think so, you seem like a cool person from all I have seen thus far, but realize this, women like typhoon blue. girl writes what, and even you are the exceptions not the rules, or the correct saying “the exception that proves the rule” the loudest majority of women tow the party line,

    yes it’s true that men run the world, but thats 10% of the men, take out the upper 20% and statistically women are doing much better than men in general.

    And this is not hard to believe if you follow the data think about it.

    1. women are 44% of the workforce.
    2. women receive 80% of social benefits
    3. women receive 92% of spousal support given.
    4. women receive 84% of child support paid out.

    so factoring out the top 20% (the bill gates and donald trumps of the world) women have the majority of the wealth in this country wealth that much of is stolen from men (see 3 and 4) they at one time claimed they loved.

    Now I will agree on your point about the anger being counter productive, but i will say it is very much needed, to compare this to the civil rights movement of the 60’s

    a big reason the world listened to martin luther king is because you also had a malcom X and it was known that the people were going to listen to one of them so the people that mattered at the time figured “we better throw a few crumbs martins way or this malcom guy may get too popular, so as of now the mens rights movement only has malcoms.

    • Byenia says:

      Hey Mortalez,

      Sorry for the delay in getting back to you. I’ll assume you meant emotional “scarring” there, and if so, yes, I tend to agree. Psychological damage and violence reigns supreme in its ability to twist and damage people. I can personally say that the emotional and psychological pain I’ve experienced hurt worse than any physical pain I’ve ever endured or can even imagine, but then again, I’m a very emotional and sensitive sort underneath it all.

      “You must understand that men much like women are part of a system that cares for neither but for political reasons seems to be currently in favor of one over the other.”

      I do see that and have stated as much on videos, comment threads, and probably here on this blog too. The social pendulum swings to and fro is how I tend to look at it for simplicity’s sake. But it’s also an illusion today, because people are all being used as fodder in the System that’s in motion. Sometimes people are used to advance its own power-grab, and this is what I see when I look at the government’s alliance with feminism. It’s using them and will discard them when they no longer serve a purpose, because everything in modern times boils down to being about money and centralized power.

      “Now think about this, that system is unseen even by those within it so its easy for those who are outside of your core group to become the face of are the malice you face on a daily basis.”

      Very astute observation, and I agree. We turn on one another here “on the ground,” so to speak, because these are the folks we see running around looking like they’re benefiting more than us, and they’re the ones we interact with face-to-face and are intimately impacted by. Plus, they’re accessible whereas the System is not, so people lash out at one another as though this group or that one serves as proxy to the State. But damaging one another doesn’t change a thing other than destroying what remains of our social fabric, communities, and relationships.

      “We are told if we work hard, and stay out of trouble we will be rewarded with a loving devoted wife, 2.3 children and weekends at the lodge drinking beers with friends or barbequing in the back yard.
      That was supposed to be our reward for a life of working yourself to an early grave.”

      We’ve all for several generations back been fed a steady diet of fantasies and fluff, and it is extremely disenchanting when those illusions shatter. Most of the hardest working and most decent people I know are the least rewarded and the most disadvantaged by the System and mistreated by their fellows out in society. It is a grave injustice, undeniably.

      Blood, sweat, and tears, but all for what? Just to wind up discarded when folks aren’t deemed useful anymore in serving somebody else’s purposes. Or work, work, work until you die, and pray there is a heaven (as my Grandma and many others out here do).

      “What we were not told was that even if we managed to achieve all that it can be lost simply because that loving wife got bored and that the state will help her take all you worked for.”

      That can happen. You can also wind up losing everything due to an injury or illness or otherwise losing your career or being sued by some asshole. Or a natural disaster that your insurance company last-minute bails out on coverage for, despite you faithfully making payments over 20 years.

      There are many potential pitfalls in today’s world. We face more dangers now than we probably ever did when humans were at the direct mercy of nature. I wouldn’t be surprised anyway.

      “We were not told that every space we happen to enjoy will be invaded and changed to the point it is almost unrecognizable. we were not told our work environments would become mine fields of political correctness where we are forced to walk on eggshells. yep it seems the 21st century is hostile to everything we are. And the result is justified anger.”

      Who was there to tell you about something that was in the process of unfolding?

      Yes, the 21st century is hostile toward everything we are, that is a very true statement. The current setup preys on our psychologies in order to sell us everything under the sun and to twist us into competing and heading to our jobs everyday so we can afford to play the game. It plays up on the psychology of status and encourages people to roll one another over because there’s money to be made in that somehow, some way.

      “Now did you deserve such hostility? I dont think so, you seem like a cool person from all I have seen thus far, but realize this, women like typhoon blue. girl writes what, and even you are the exceptions not the rules, or the correct saying ‘the exception that proves the rule’ the loudest majority of women tow the party line…”

      Most people aim to toe the line, and that goes for both men and women. There aren’t many real rebels around anymore of either sex, and even when they appear to be they’re usually just working another angle. Because nearly everything winds up revolving around the all-mighty dollar in this day and age, and people are willing to sell out quick.

      Plus, people want to experience a sense of belonging, as is understandable. And if the others are all toeing the line and you are not, you are ostracized and that gets us right back up to what you were saying about emotional pain. Humans are social creatures and it seriously fucks with our heads when we’re tossed away from the herd. So very few will prove capable of fighting against the current, at least for long, because the backlash can destroy a person’s sanity. We’ve seen it countless times when we read history.

      And part of the problem today is that seemingly rebellious factions form their own groups in a neo-tribalistic fashion, but they are still receiving “herd support” from one another from within. Unfortunately that sort of scenario can very easily turn into an “in-group echo chamber” due to the group’s isolation from the mainstream. But the mainstream is just a bigger herd, that’s all.

      Now, one of the big problems I have with statistics like that is how individuals wind up trivialized among the data. Individual circumstances seem irrelevant, because the focus is on this collective assessment.

      Much of the wealth is “stolen” from men? Hmm. I guess it depends on what exactly we’re talking about there. Women are out here earning a living too, and would all of that be considered at the expense of men? I’ve heard some argue that yes, women in the workforce in general has taken jobs from men. But that assumes that only men originally deserved access.

      But either way, I don’t really care because I personally aim to opt out as much as possible from the rat race. I care to look at it at times, but tracking where people’s balls are bouncing has us distracted from comprehending how and why this is playing out to begin with, or how we might ever change it. Because I don’t personally believe we can repair this broken system, not in a way that I’d likely be satisfied with, but others will do as they wish. Most can’t imagine anything different and therefore will continue perpetuating the situation in thinking they’re personally getting ahead. But then again, how do any of us escape it? Through more laws and governance? lol Not hardly.

      While we’re angry over what we’re currently experiencing, my question to us is what are we using that anger for? Anger is a wonderful propellant, and yet we seem to be using it to dive-bomb into one another or to try to “fix the system” by playing right into it and exacerbating tensions.

      As for your last point, even Malcolm X came to view things differently in the end. And when he did and came back from Mecca with a more cooperative message extending to all people, he was swiftly assassinated.

      Try to have a good night, hon. Take care.

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